Terraforming: The Scifience

'''Gentle music plays in the background as the Dream Tavern slowly forms into shape in your mind. A large room filled with cool, pastel colors, the tables sweeping into nothingness to allow - instead of the generic incorporeal tavern you would usually expect - a large circle of plain chairs... no, we're in pseudo reality here, why not live a little? Big leather sofa chairs! The kind of expensive ones you find in the queens library, with high backs and fabulous ornate feet. In the largest of them all, drawing attention to the fact that he is running the event (and also to the fact that, even here he's a titch) sits Dement, legs crossed.'''

You say, "Hi guys!"

Mika says, "Hiiiiiiiiiiiii."

Dice says, "Snazzy!"

"Hello!" Volgavian calls as he goes to hog one of the larger sofa chairs.

You say, "Take a seat, take a seat. Well. Don't take one, cause I'm loaning them from my imagination and I'm not sure what'll happen if that gets taken."

Tiana does the hello dance.

Kastaprulyi runs one off on the copy machine before taking it. You say, "Apparently, the only clock I own with an alarm was set an hour late, so we're all going to pretend like this is starting on time and nobody is going to draw any awareness to the fact that it didn't. Exellent."

Mika jedimindtricks.

Volgavian says, "So, where does this start?"

Tiana curls up in Mika's lap instead of a smancy chair. For Mika is -better-.

Mika brow-waggles.

You say, "Hmm, where indeed? I guess I'll make sure we're clear on what this is. Kas, Eyota, the Osirian's and I have all been working on this cool little 'Save New Luna' plot for a while now, and it's presented a wonderful opportunity for us to... write a load of scientific sounding gobble that explains what we're actually doing to get around this. Most of the time, I'm quite happy to do this by myself - I'll look at random wikipedia entries so that I can boost up my lingo and vaguely stay near reality but we touched upon an interesting topic, terraforming, and in the spur of the moment I decided it'd be fun to get everyone together on something, as informal as you like, and just... chat!"

Volgavian says, "Okay, what exactly about it are we trying to define, first? How it's done?"

Dice says, "Hmmm. Has there been much terraforming in OS's history? Mars, I know for sure..."

You say, "And a load of moons around Sol."

Volgavian says, "Wasn't one of the Lunas?" You say, "Can we presume Waldheim? Or was that one of those one in a million planets that can support life?E" Mika says, "Several of the moons in Sol. Ganymede comes to mind." Dice says, "Plain Luna wasn't, and I don't thiiink New Luna had to be?" Mika isn't sure about Waldheim. Kastaprulyi says, "Portmeirion recently" Mika says, "Yes!" Dice says, "So since most of it's in the Sol system, I guess by 3008 it'd probably be pretty old technology, right? Pretty established?" Kastaprulyi says, "Terraforming Luna actually was debated in the 300 elections." Kastaprulyi says, "3000" Dice says, "Gee, that would have been a GOOD IDEA." Mika says, "It'd have to be pretty established. Pretty fine-tuned. Probably god-awful expensive to do, and requiring teams of thousands of people, but by now there are probably corporations specializing in it." Kastaprulyi says, "Kinda shortsighted, though, since you'd have to keep replacing the air." Martin says, "Isn't the moon too small to support an atmosphere and its soil dry and utterly useless for growing crap?" Kastaprulyi says, "True, Martin" Mika says, "Our moon? Yeah." Dice says, "I mean mostly it would have been a good idea so as to prevent that whole 99 percent of Luna dying. ;)" Mika hahahas Dice says, "But, yeah. I guess you'd have to make an atmosphere first?" You say, "Kas came up with the idea of an artificial gravity, that could sustain the atmosphere by itself." Kastaprulyi agrees with Mika on the established thing, except the corporation part. You couldn't have a corporation without more than one customer. Kastaprulyi says, "I came up with what?" You say, "Okay, maybe I came up with it and dreamed you came up with it!" Volgavian says, "See, that seems to make... rather little sense." Dement coughs. Tiana gives Dee some Halls. Dice says, "You wouldn't need much gravity to keep an atmosphere, would you? I mean, I'm no physicist." Volgavian says, "I'd imagine something powerful enough to act as an artificial gravity field for an entire planet to the point of giving it an atmosphere would be /way/ too energy costly, I'd think." Kastaprulyi says, "Depends on what gas you want, Dice." Dice says, "Well, it seems almost all of our races breathe about the same stuff." Kastaprulyi agrees with Volgavian Dice says, "Therefore we can assume an Earth-like atmosphere... I mean, hell, the name is TERRAforming." Mika says, "Well, ships have artificial gravity that sustains life in zero-gee and jumpspace. Perhaps that, on a larger scale." Dice says, "Won't most planets big enough to be worth terraforming HAVE gravity?" You say, "True, why terraform if you could just set up a 'moon-base'?" Kastaprulyi says, "However, you -could- dump so much oxygen into Luna's atmosphere that it wouldn't matter that most of it blew away every few decades (years?)" Mika says, "True. But perhaps not all of them. Terraformers would likely have a contingency plan. :)" Dice says, "Luna proved why moon-bases are inferior to full terraforming." Martin thinks that would be.. just the power needed to run one. I don't think it would be feasable. Dice says, "Technological failure=death." Ruin says, "Weren't there some bad freakythings that resulted from bad terraforming?" Dice says, "We can assume -most- terraforming probably takes place on planets with some gravity of their own. Why terraform a marble anyway?" Kastaprulyi says, "Nobody ever said Seale knew what he was talking about when he suggested terraforming. :)" Volgavian nods to Martin. Dice says, "If we don't assume gravity I think it gets to be a serious headache." Mika laughs. Martin says, "Probably be easier to build a Dyson or whatever Sphere then it would be to terra form the moon. Ring world anyone?" Tiana can check all this with her physicist friend after, if you all like, just for plausability's sake. Kastaprulyi says, "That'd be cool, T" Dice says, "So how do you make a breathable atmosphere?" Kastaprulyi says, "Yes Ruin, Portmeirion used self-replicating nanites (a bad idea in any case) in an attempt to terraform the moon quickly, rather than the century or more you'd expect. But it went very wrong." Volgavian says, "Well, you need a large enough planet first..." Dice says, "Assuming large enough planet, sure." Volgavian says, "So, /our/ moon might not work, but there are moons that already do have atmospheres." Volgavian says, "I think Europa, for one?" SUBJECT LIST? Reasons to Terraform Technology Behind Terraforming Limitations of that Tech History of Terraforming Current Situation Freaky Crap That Happens If It Goes Wrong (cheers Ruin) Dice laughs Dice says, "Reasons to Terraform: When the Phyrrians destroy your domes, YOU DON'T DIE." Volgavian grins. Mika hahahas. Tiana says, "Good reason, that." Volgavian says, "But, more seriously, you could be looking at colonization. Living Space." Dice says, "Probably cheaper in terms of surface area than doming a whole planet, too. But I think not dying might be number 1." You say, "I was thinking resources, too." Volgavian says, "There could be materials on a planet you want to exploit, and want to do long term, yes." Dice says, "Makes sense. Easier agriculture, probably, too." You say, "You terraform a planet, you can then go down and suck that planet dry." Dement slurps. Dice says, "So hell. Long as it's cost-effective, plenty of reasons." Tiana says, "Mm, delicious planet." Kastaprulyi says, "Reasons to Terraform: you can win votes for promising the sky, and will be dead before anybody notices how long it's taking" Mika says, "Right. Like, say, if there's a large amount of polydenum, or something." Dice says, "Or your in-dome population gets too big, on a less mercenary note." Mika laughs. Or, y'know, LAME COLONIZATION REASONS. Mika says, "WHATEVER, DICE." Dice says, "WHATEVER" You say, "YO FOLKS, COOL IT OR I BLOW DIS PLACE." You say, "So that's pretty much it? Awesome." Volgavian pops a cap in Dee. "So, we have reasons. Next is technology?" You say, "Nobody thinks people would terraform a planet JUST CAUSE THEY CAN." Dice says, "Delusions of god-like grandeur." Kastaprulyi says, "Depends how hard it is for you, Dee" Dice says, "Kidnap everyone named Adam and Eve and drop them on your new paradise." You say, "Final reason: So that you have a creepy setting for the sequel for Alien." Bing bong. Next subject: Technology! You say, "This is where we all Google 'Terraforming'." Kastaprulyi says, "Technology Behind Terraforming: large numbers of huge catalytic chemical reactors with freaky energy sources" Martin read a few articles about terra forming Mars. Seems like the current plan is to use a bateria. (New BB message (32/44) posted to 'Randomizations' by Aadzrian: OH SNAP) Volgavian says, "Actually, there's probably some biological factors as... Darn you!" Mika ponders. Well, something to sustain an artificial atmosphere until the 'real' atmosphere is finally ready to stand on its own. Volgavian says, "Martin got to it before me, but yeah, bacteria would be a good place to start." Volgavian says, "You start off with microbial life to try and release some of the chemicals in the planet and help convert the atmosphere." You say, "Make a planet the same way ours started." Dice says, "To make it feasible we'd have to include some sort of mysterious catalyst though, huh?" Dice says, "Otherwise terraforming would take brazillion years." Kastaprulyi is partial to using life, but apparently some big machines were involved in the OS universe. Mika says, "But is there a way to accelerate the process? Say, have it take years instead of generations?" Volgavian says, "Yep." Dice says, "Life as the base, big machines as catalyst!" You say, "Wouldn't planets need a checklist of stuff that terraforming requires, or could it be done with anything?" Martin says, "Well its genetically altered stuff so the time line would a lot shorter." Dice says, "I'd assume planets would have to have some basic requirements. We already settled on gravity." Dice says, "Sorta." Mika says, "Genetically-altered how? Just saying O GENETICALLY-ALTERED LOL sounds too cop-outty for me." Dice says, "Enough nutrients for the bacteria, right?" Volgavian says, "Make up a fanciful name for the terraforming engines. The Macrobiotic Alteration Engine or somethiing." Martin says, "Water or ice would make things easier." Dice says, "They terraformed Mars, though, and doesn't it pretty much have none to very little?" Latest News: GM FOODS MAKE MARS HABITABLE Dice snerks Kastaprulyi says, "The Kretonians used extremely advanced tech, already had a partially-completed Mars to work on, and their efforts took a century to get the planet halfway livable." Dice says, "I'd assume the bacteria would have to be engineered for greater efficiency in excreting the right chemicals, as a starter." Dice says, "And for increased reproduction rates or something." Martin says, "But you could make bacteria that would be able to survive off of whatever was around. I think as long as there was some gravity or... Dice said it first." Volgavian nods to Dice. Mika says, "So basically, there's no way any of our PCs would actually walk upon a terraformed New Luna." Mika says, "Or rather, if we did, it'd be hella sketch." Dice says, "Well, NL doesn't need a full dose." Dice says, "It's a fully habitable planet that's just been screwed up." Martin says, "NL is a big oil spill" Mika says, "True." Kastaprulyi says, "Well, we could use replicator nanites, if anyone were stupid enough to try it again. Or pester the Kamir and hope it didn't get turned into a giant basketball." You say, "Most planets have a load of crap on them already. We're not just looking at big red dusty planets, what about all those weird gasses planets tend to collect?" Dice says, "So you'd start with super-bacteria, and maybe machines that process what's in the environment already? I mean, on the most basic level..." Dement would happily live on a giant basketball. Dice says, "Everything is made out of the same stuff." Dice says, "The OS universe has mastered controlled fission AND fusion." Kastaprulyi says, "Earthlike planets tend to have lots of CO2 and N2" Dice says, "So giant machines that eat crap and spit out more useful crap, s'what I'm saying." Mika says, "Yeah. Big funky filters." Mika says, "Give the planet some lungs. That could be the slang! I INVENTED SLANG." Mika rockyruns. Dice says, "-Awesome- slang." [OOC] Martin says, "Well, Bacteria would work as these engines." Martin think of them as algee or something. Like trees. Dice says, "Well, it'd take a while for bacteria to take care of BIG lumps of hazardous stuff, right?" Martin says, "But you can create a whole lot of them." Volgavian says, "Perhaps, like Martin said, the "engines" are bio engines?" Mika says, "Yeah. But maybe the same principle. Man-made organic filters." Volgavian says, "Trees that are placed around the planet that help produce the bacteria being used." Kastaprulyi says, "I've seen prototypes of CO2 converter IRL using algae" Dice says, "Aw, I sorta like the idea of these bio-machines crawling all over eating radioactivity and acid or whatever and peeing healthy water." Mika says, "The bacteria and trees and shit would just be like, to kinda normalize things on a microscopic level, and supplement the rest?" Tiana nods at Dice, "The picture in my head of that is pretty awesome." Dice says, "I guess having both trees and roaming organic filters would speed up the process." Kastaprulyi says, "One had this conveyer belt loaded with algae and rolling through a water and nutrient tank." Mika says, "Roaming filters are win. I say keep those." You say, "Here here." Dice says, "No reason it can't be a dual-stage process. The trees handle the atmosphere mostly, the roamers the soil?" Dice says, "Soil/water." Tiana agrees with the Mika-mi. Kastaprulyi says, "Why roaming?" Volgavian says, "Just because it looks cool." Volgavian says, "Rule of cool there, Kas. ;)" Dice says, "Cause it's easier than seeding the -entire surface- with trees?" Mika says, "Because the imagery is awesome. They crawl around, eat bad stuff, poop good stuff." Martin says, ":didn't really mean tree trees. <.<." Dice says, "I'm using trees as shorthand :P" Dice says, "Cause that's basically what they'd be." Martin says, "The bacteria, more or less. You know that they are creating a strain to clean up oil spills?" Dice says, "Yes, I know. Trees of bacteria if you must be pedantic :P" Kastaprulyi would prefer sticking with the stationary Mars-type machines, unless we made it clear that this was a new technology we're developing. Dice says, "Mars was done centuries ago, wasn't it?" Tiana says, "Yeah.. Mars is old news, yo. That tech's obsolete by now, even if it wasn't centuries." Mika says, "Yep. Pre-Sanc." Dice says, "So this two-form process could be the quicker evolution." Kastaprulyi says, "post sanc, but yes, centuries" You say, "But someone pointed out that it was advanced Kretonian tech. Did we inherit the knowledge of it?" Dice says, "But it was also pointed out it was partially done before the Kretonians?" Tiana says, "You'd think if we were using it, we would have figured out how to modify it by -now-." Dice says, "Man, none of us but Kas remembers this. I think it's safe to say it's evolved." Kastaprulyi assumes someone's prodded at the Kretonian tech by now, unless it was rigged to self-destruct. Mika says, "Why not? Why wouldn't people have taken something away from the Kretonians? Even if only an idea." Tiana highfives KAs. Dice says, "We learned from them, adapted, Made Awesome Progress." Dice says, "Progress in the -awesome- direction, that is, with roaming water-peeing behemoths." Mika says, "Quicker, though. How quick is quicker? I'm not a fan of anyone doing a terraforming project, even a 'half-dose' like New Luna, and bam it's suddenly all better within days of the plot being over. How long should we expect it to take?" Kastaprulyi says, "So why have no planets been terraformed since, besides Portmeirion?" Dice says, "Well, it'd be ungodly expensive." Dice says, "And probably take, oh. What about like 50 years for a complete start to finish job?" You say, "I was thinking about the Phyrrian's chemical bath on New Luna, and the amount of weird shit that's happening over there. How far could that kind of tech take us?" Dice says, "I imagine you'd want similar tech as is used in terraforming, because you'd want to suck up the bad. Just without needing to worry about creating the good." Martin says, "You know, folks would probably have to go down and clear the phyrrians away from any terra forming sites." Volgavian says, "Yeeep." Dice says, "The state of the Phyrrians on NL can be discussed elsewhere. ;)" Volgavian says, "Also a yep." Mika yeahs. Let's stick to the topic at hand... Dice says, "It'd be my call that NL would be a much quicker job if you could figure out how to remove the radioactivity. Which there's probably tech for." You say, "I'll shake you lot into joining the plotline later!" Dice says, "But a full terraforming ought to take decades." You say, "Only Greenville is radioactive, Dice." Ruin raises an eyebrow at Dement. Mika says, "I like the idea of a huge price tag. Not to be a huge cock, but I'd expect to see some +transfers of big amounts of $ from the Osirians over the admin Econ chan." Mika says, "This isn't just something, like, you whip up in a lab." Martin nods. Only Greenville is radioactive. Dice says, "And the surrounding area." Kastaprulyi says, "I think huge price tag in this case would be like large percentages of a planet's GDP." Martin says, "The rest is just toxic" "And that wasn't the Phyrrians, >.> Mika afks a few, guys... phone, phone, phone. Kastaprulyi says, "But yes, this is probably still going to cost the Osirians a lot." Dice says, "Some RP will probably have to be done to fund it, yeah." You say, "For sure." You say, "I can't remember where we got with the idea of getting commercial companies involved." Dice says, "I'd assume a full terraforming would be something obscene like trillions upon trillions of credits, as well as 50 years. NL might just be in the low billions." Volgavian says, "I remember the point we got to where we said, "We don't want Sivad involved" ... But that's about it." Kastaprulyi nods to Dice. Dice says, "But, well, we can worry about exact amounts some other time." Kastaprulyi says, "As for tech... I don't like the idea of living things doing nuclear transmutations- that's just orders of magnitude more than is realistic for them. But living things -could- sequester radioactives inside themselves for easy harvesting." Dice says, "Sure, fair enough." Volgavian says, "I wasn't thinking of living things doing nuclear transmutations... But generally, I don't think you'd choose a planet where you had to do that for terraforming anyways." Volgavian says, "You'd pick a place that has all the elements you need, and have them just rearrange the molecules." Kastaprulyi was referring to Greenville Volgavian says, "Ahh. Yeah, that isn't a bio thing." Dice says, "Theoretically the roamers would be built to deal with SOME radiation, I'd think." Dice says, "We can assume they have the capability to store a limited amount of nuclear waste." Tiana says, "Well especially this far into the future, we can't expect them -not- to have some capability for it." Martin thinks the easiest and cheapest way would just to steer clear of that area for a few years. It would bounce back on its own after a few decades if you could the rest of the planet working. Look at the Ukraine. You say, "I'm all for radiation. We could go Chernobyl on it and have weird mutant men walking about ^_^" Volgavian says, "Okay, Martin's probably right." Dice says, "I just mean so if they encountered small amounts, though. Not Chernobyl-level radiation." Kastaprulyi says, "Sure, living things can tolerate radioactivity. There are RL bacteria that live in nuclear reactors (they evolved the super DNA repair to deal with drought)" You say, "Not that... weird mutant men exist." Martin says, "Chernobyl looks like a nature preserve now oddly enough." Dice says, "There is a continuum." Kastaprulyi says, "Weird mutants from radiation are very very unlikely. Your cells (and expecially reproductive cells) are made to self destruct if anything looks even slightly fishy." Tiana says, "Kas though, that's -our- biology. There's all sorts of Aliens in the OS universe that could react differently." Dice says, "We're sorta wandering though, aren't we?" Dice says, "Can we assume the tech is equipped to deal with mild levels of radiation but anything too risky is left alone?" Kastaprulyi nods to Dice. Martin says, "Sounds about right." You say, "What about warmth? Does that just come with everything else?" Dice hmmms. Well, that's mostly a sun thing, innit? Though the atmospheric quality can effect it? Dice says, "er, affect it" Martin says, "Yeah, you get a thick enough atmosphere and it will retain more heat." Kastaprulyi says, "The original Ganymede terraforming used orbital mirrors, too." You say, "Orbital what?" Martin says, "Well thats Ganymede way out from the sun." Kastaprulyi says, "Ganymede was very early on in human colonization" Dice says, "I'd imagine they'd -mostly- choose planets already kinda decent temperature-wise, but then vary the atmosphere to adjust? Or I guess extreme measures like that if they really are determined." Kastaprulyi says, "Microbes could change the reflectance (albedo) of the surface and thus the temperature, if they covered wide enough areas." Dice says, "Looking at us versus Venus... atmosphere might allow a -lot-, actually." Kastaprulyi says, "Venus does have a heck of a greenhouse effect, but it would still be pretty toasty with only an Earth-like greenhouse effect." Dice says, "The difference is more the atmosphere than the distance from the Sun, I think." Mika returns Kastaprulyi says, "True" Volgavian says, "I'm not entirely sure about that, either..." Volgavian says, "In Venus' case, though, yes, the atmosphere is a huge part." Dice says, "Venus is NOT much closer to the sun than we are and it's like 500C." Martin says, "A lot of amtosphre can be a bad thing as well. Think of diving deep in the ocean. Pressure." Dice says, "Obviously we'd not be aiming for anything near that bad." Mika yeaaaaahs. : Dice says, "But a planet could probably be upped 20 degrees or so with relatively minor consequences in terms of pressure." Kastaprulyi says, "Sounds reasonable." Mika says, "Wasn't the Ice Age a global temperature shift of 10 degrees? It could, potentially, wreck the entire biosphere." You say, "Are humans on Venus?" [OOC] Volgavian says, "Not that I've heard!" Mika says, "No." Dice says, "We're talking about planets that have no biosphere before we get a hold of them." Kastaprulyi says, "I can't remember hearing anything about Venus on the MUSH, other than some orbital stuff." Dice says, "And making them warmer so they can be more Earth-like." Mika ohs. Well then! Dice says, "But I think temp changes would have to be relatively small! Further explaining why not everywhere gets terraformed." You say, "Can you terraform a gas giant? (if there was any point)" Mika says, "Right. If there's a substantial amount of life on a planet, then, well, certain ethical issues would arise. And I'm certain by this stage, there is some Code of Conduct for terraforming enterprises." You say, "Do they have enough solid in them, even?" Dice says, "...I'd have to say you COULD probably if you were willing to devote like 200 years and more money than God?" Mika says, "Maybe as sanctioned by OATO as a whole." Mika laughs! Kastaprulyi says, "I think that's just too big to contemplate, Dee" Dice says, "Yeah, I doubt anyone would ever try." Dement grins. You say, "I like this idea of a Code of Conduct." Kastaprulyi says, "Gas giants are, you know, giant. :)" You say, "What would that involve?" Dice says, "Primarily not to terraform places with a certain amount of life, you'd have to suppose." Kastaprulyi says, "Ethics of terraforming, you mean?" Dice says, "Maybe no terraforming anything with greater than unicellular life forms?" Volgavian says, "Sounds reasonable." Dice is racist against bacteria Martin says, "Terra forming a gas giant? I'm not sure you could, but you could possibly have some station in the upper atmo." Mika says, "Yeah. Maybe no drastic interference with indigenous species, should any exist. And other legal issues, like the terraformers cannot set themselves up as the governing body -- that would probably be post-Ritter, I'd imagine. Maybe it all defaults to 'OATO'." Kastaprulyi suspects that anyone with the money to do the terraforming has enough money to define their own ethics. Dice says, "I don't think you could terraform without drastic interference with indigenous species." Volgavian says, "Terraforming a gas giant would be insane." You say, "No setting up of self destruct sequences on the planet?" Volgavian says, "... Moving on." Mika says, "Ritter set himself up as king before he punched the button. But yeah, Dice, I mean like -- 'go out of your way to preserve lifeforms'." You say, "We should make a new phrase involving Ritter." Mika says, "Rather than just trampling all over them." Dement Rittered it. Dice says, "ethically you'd be best sticking to planets with nothing bigger than unicellular life." Dice says, "And there SHOULD be enough of those.." Kastaprulyi says, "It seems pretty unrealistic to me, Dice, but it's well established in the OS universe that evolution on wet planets necessarily converges to a very Earth-like biology. So terraforming -could- leave some native life behind, even if it messed up the ecosystems." Mika says, "Right, but not always. Polydenum is precious. I can tell ya right now governments would be all over a planet crawling with the stuff, even if there's a million Bambis prancing around." Dice laughs. Kastaprulyi agrees with Mika on that. Dice says, "I guess it could be a gold standard without being law." Mika says, "Yeah. One of Those Things, and part of why the ethical code exists." Dice says, "But it should be a gold standard that you can't terraform anything on which sentients are living without their consent." Dice says, "And a law" Mika says, "Of course." Dice says, "As obvious as it sounds.." Mika says, "Otherwise, well, you'd just be an invader..." Kastaprulyi says, "Protecting sentients should be the law, yes." Dice says, "Even if they're Cro-Magnons or whatever." Dice is also racist against cavemen. Mika snickers Volgavian says, "They're only debatably sentient. So, what topic are we on?" Kastaprulyi says, "BTW, here are some notes I snipped from my copy of the old website. I added some other info from that to the Mars and Outbacker discussion pages and uploaded a new log." Dice says, "Well, we fairly well covered the tech, right?" Kastaprulyi says, "http://rapidshare.com/files/139838905/terraforming_notes.txt.html" Dice says, "What was next, limits?" Kastaprulyi says, "Yep." You say, "We've partially covered them already, but we might as well indulge my lovely bullet point subject system." Dice says, "LIMITS. Uh. Size (for gravity). Life forms. Distance from a sun. Radioactivity?" Mika says, "And like, sticky red tape laws and existing sentient life." Dice says, "And monaaaay." Kastaprulyi says, "Depends on who you want to live on this planet. Are we talking humanoids?" Dice says, "Well, wouldn't all of those concerns apply to every race?" Dice says, "They may have different requirements, but they still need them right." Kastaprulyi says, "Right." Dice says, "...though most of the inhabited planets seem to be mysteriously of the same temperature!" Martin wants an Ice World. Mika thinks that's just an ease-of-playability thing. Phyrria you can't set foot on without a suit. Centauri is a frozen ball of ice. Castor is a rainforest... Martin thinks Keller was going to do a arc involving one but that never worked out. Volgavian says, "You know, rather than saying temperature, it might be easier to say, "within a certain range of their sun."" Mika says, "This is true. Not all suns burn at the same temp." Mika says, "Tomin's a white dwarf, for example." Dice says, "We don't need to set out precise limitations, do we?" You say, "We should rename Centauri 'Hoth' and import some Demarian's with horns on." Mika nahs. But for the sake of making it sound scientific, an' all. Dice says, "We can just say "of a potentially viable temperature"" Dice says, "Because, well, 100mil miles from a white dwarf is different from 100mil miles from a yellow star" Dice says, "And so we don't wanna say 100mil miles." Mika nods. Tomin Kora is actually supposed to be pretty cold. Gray and desolate and junk. Volgavian says, "We don't have to set the specific number of miles, we can just say, "There are suggested ranges for each type of star" etc." Dice says, "...Why don't we just say "of a potentially viable temperature for the terraforming race"?" Dice says, "Those ranges would make no sense for Centauri or Castori." Kastaprulyi says, "By the way, M'mralu is still a frozen ball of ice, since nobody terraformed it as was debated." You say, "Nah, we don't want to terraform that." You say, "It's name is to hard to spell." Kastaprulyi says, "It used to be inhabited, so would probably be easier to return to that condition." Kastaprulyi finds a formula: solar power on surface= constant * sun temperature^4 * (sun radius/ (2* orbital radius) )^2 Dice says, "Seeing as every race would have at least a slightly different preferred solar power, I seriously recommend keeping it simple." Dice says, "We're not gonna clarify the proper size/mass/gravity necessary, are we?" Volgavian says, "Noted." Mika whoas. Okay, no, no complex math. Unneccessary. Mika says, "KISS." Dement smooches Mika. Martin says, "Odari is a ball of ice too isn't it?" Dice says, "So limitations should just be you need x stuff. Not like PCs are gonna be out terraforming." Volgavian doesn't want the math either. "We can /say/ there are these formulas out there, but no, no math." Tiana joins Dee in smooching Mika. Mika says, "Yeah. I like just saying 'LOL WE'LL FOLLOW TEH FORMULAZ!' and Dice's convenient 'potentially viable temperature'. Simple, gets the point across, nobody's taking advanced mathematics to understand a damn plot point." Dement yays for Scifience. Mika says, "Reverse the polarity, Mr. Dement!" You say, "Shall we move on, gentlemushlings?" Dice says, "Activate the PLOT DEVICE" Dement turns the magnet around. Dice says, "BUM bum BUUUM." You say, "Turn on the christmas lights, Tiana. We're going into Hyperspeeddrive." Kastaprulyi votes for not getting -too- specific about any of this. It's much easier to roleplay ignorance and indifference convincingly than it is to spout technobabble good enough to satisfy our relatively well-educated audience. Tiana flicks the lights, and suddenly the room is a garish array of red, blue and greey, all flashing in seizure inducing style. Dice says, "I'm ready to move on but I forget the next step!" Tiana also has green lights. Yes. Dice stares at Tiana. "There are four lights." Tiana doesn't like the other ones. Volgavian says, "History of Terraforming, Current SItuation, Freaky Crap That Happens If It Goes Wrong." Kastaprulyi adds http://www.johnbray.org.uk/planetdesigner/ Martin isn't too sure what freaky crap could happen. It all depends on the tech you are using. At the very worse? You utterly fail or make the planet worse. You want to go scifi, the bacteria or machines turn. You say, "Look at the freaky stuff on New Luna." Dice thinks we kiinda went over the hsitory already, but doesn't know anything about the Kretonians or all of that. Doh. Tiana says, "Radioactive zombies?" Kastaprulyi says, "I don't think it gets any freakier than Portmerion" Martin says, "Well probably not Tia if we are assuming we are using a new world." Kastaprulyi says, "Did you download those notes, Dice?" Dice says, "Nope, I didn't." Kastaprulyi says, "http://rapidshare.com/files/139838905/terraforming_notes.txt.html" Kastaprulyi says, "I included the links to those wiki pages I copied stuff to." Tiana says, "Hardly a serious suggestion, Marty. :P" Dice says, "Theoretically you could maybe overload the planet with the bacteria, if you engineered too strong a strain." Martin thinks Earth had some Zombies. Volgavian blinks. "Huh?" Kastaprulyi says, "Not really zombies, but people hard on their luck" Mika says, "Yeah. You could theoretically create your own biohazard." Tiana thinks you're a zombie who was preserved remarkably well. Dice says, "Or if you terraform a place with minor lifeforms, induce some sort of rapid mutation to survive in them." Kastaprulyi says, "Martin and Volgavian- Washington DC (one of the cities bombed by the Zangali refugees) was apparently isolated for centuries with people still inside" Dice says, "Sabotaged roamers that ate GOOD stuff and pooped BAD stuff!" Volgavian says, "I like that one, Dice." Tiana says, "We're gonna need one hell of a poop baggie." Kastaprulyi says, "Things tend to eat what there's a lot of." Kastaprulyi says, "New Luna would be vulnerable to sabotage of living terraformers, since it has more of the good stuff than bad." Volgavian says, "Kas, the roamers are artificial cosntructs..." Dice says, "But with bacteria on the inside, right?" Volgavian says, "Sabotage is the intentional screwinig up of them, isn't it?" Tiana says, "That's what sabotage entails." Volgavian says, "Then I don't think we have to worry about there being more of a good thing making them more likely to start messing things up. Or maybe, if they are biotic..." Kastaprulyi says, "Well, if you really did seed the whole planet, you'd need to have some serious redundant precautions against very unlikely natural mutations, too." Mika hrrrrms. Maybe it involves collecting a few critters befor the terraforming begins? And getting them ready in the lab, and releasing them back into the wild. Mika says, "Like they do with seals in oil spills." Kastaprulyi says, "(pretty unlikely chance)^(a planetful of the things) = (not unlikely chance)" Kastaprulyi says, "I can think of some advantages and disadvantages of that, Mika." Kastaprulyi says, "The good aspect of using native lifeforms is that they're already well adapted and could thrive." Kastaprulyi says, "The bad aspect is that they're already well adapted and could thrive - even if they experience sabotage or a bad mutation." Mika hrms. Iunno. I just keep thinking about like, megamammals, and like two degrees of atmospheric temperature change totally nixing them. You say, "What's a megamammal?" Dice says, "Mammoths." Dice says, "Big mammals." Kastaprulyi replies to Mika with "crocodile" Dice says, "once upon a time Mars had lots of DINOSAURS" Mika says, "Bigass mammals that existed right before the Ice Age hit. Dinosaurs managed to exist longer than them." Mika'll crocodile YOU, Kas Kastaprulyi says, "Like 50 foot sloths and bear-sized armadillos, Dement." Dice says, "then it was terraformed, the end." Dice says, "Dude, how sweet would it be to ride a bear-sized armadillo into battle?" Mika says, "FOCUS, DICE. FOCUS." Dice says, "...Sorry, I'm sleepy." Mika fingersnaps. Kastaprulyi says, "Can we go back to the history part of the discussion? I think the tech stuff should be pretty easy to find on any sci-fi or world-building websites." Mika thought we were on freaky biological accidents. WHERE ARE WE, DEMENT? Tiana thought we were with the what could go wrong bit too. Dice says, "we sorta skipped history and current state a bit." You say, "We're on History..." Dice says, "and went right to freaky biological accidents." Mika LAUGHS Mika says, "Dement! You fail at keeping us on track. HISTORY. OKAY. HISTORY." Mika says, "MARS, A BUNCH OF MOONS." You say, "I'm sorry, so many lots of stuffs." Tiana says, "AND MARTIANS!" HISTORY DONE, ONWARDS! Mika is cracking up over here. You say, "What's happening NOW?" Tiana promises to glue Mika back together if she breaks apart from all the cracks. Dice says, "Um. Nothing's being terraformed right now, right?" You say, "Are there any projects going on? Are there corporations, teams that are dedicated to doing it? TERRAFORMING NOW?" Dice says, "Except the quasi-terraforming Luna work?" Tiana says, "Your mom is, Dee." Tiana says, "She's a whole corporation all by herself." Kastaprulyi says, "I think the Luna idea in the 3000 elections got nixed, Dice, unless you're referring to something else?" Mika says, "I'd think there are at least a few major firms out there specializing in at least aspects of it." Tiana goes back to being quiet now. >.> Dice says, "new Luna." Kastaprulyi would agree with 'aspects' Dice says, "Environmental cleanup, probably. some people who maintain the roaming robots could use them for that as well." Mika says, "Yeah. Maybe a few labs grown the necessary bacteria in huge amounts just to have it on-hand. That sort of thing." Dice says, "Giant canisters of bacteria. Eew." Mika says, "I doubt there'd be like, BOB'S TERRAFORMING, INC. It's something that requires huge amounts of networking and trillions of dollars." Kastaprulyi says, "Yeah. Lots of folks would have cleanup work to do. How many differen bombings have their been in recent history? Earth bombing itself, Lem'ing, Nall, Kretonians, (alt-Castori!)..." Tiana thinks it'd be fun if the company really was named BOB'S TERRAFORMING, INC. Dice says, "So like Terra Consulting brings together Bob's Bacteria and Jane's Awesome Gold-Pooping Robots with Sally's Geological Survey Team..." Dice says, "On the very rare occasion it needs to be done?" Mika says, "Oh man! Alt-Castori. Hahaha, warmongering bears..." Kastaprulyi says, "Sounds good, Dice. Though you'd probably need a few dozen of each type." Mika says, "I like the idea of the Osirians functioning as consultants and bringing these groups together for New Luna, but that's not really my shot to call. It just strikes me as more plausible." Dice nodnods. They could do some of the low-level cleanup, but it's probably too massive for them to do alone. Volgavian says, "Considering there are maybe three or four of us actually doing research on that project, yeah, definitely." Kastaprulyi says, "So we're talking something on the order of decades for the NL cleanup, provided we don't try anything stupidly quick or get Kamir or Hiver help?" Dice says, "I wouldn't say decades, to be honest." Mika says, "Several years. I mean, that just like... I don't know, that's what feels right to ME. What does everyone else think?" Dice says, "The Phyrrians were only actively chemically polluting it for a couple months before they got nuked and thrown into some disarray." Mika has this imagery of Sonic CD, where Sonic smashes one of the polluting robots and a flower springs up. Nothing like that. Dice snerks. Dice would personally venture no less than 1 year and no more than 5? Volgavian says, "Sounds reasonable!" Volgavian says, "We'll hire Sonic." Mika says, "Three? Three is a nice middle ground. WHO LIKES THREE, SHOW OF HANDS?" Volgavian has no hands, but will go for it. Mika hahahas Kastaprulyi would say at least two, with actual the number determined by how much we get done. You say, "I vote sonic." A blue streak speeds by. Mika says, "Anyway! RP will settle that, as it always does and always should. But... yeah, currently happening on the terraforming front: I see lots of firms working together, rather than one big megacorporation." Kastaprulyi says, "If we let the exact time stay unknown, then we could tweak it a bit if going faster or slower looked like better RP." Kastaprulyi says, "Or what Mika said." Dice nods to Mika. There's not enough demand for a single megacorp to make sense. Mika nodnods to Kas, exactly. Why nail it down now? Just keep it at 'we all know it'll take some time.' Kastaprulyi says, "Nailing down a lower limit (barring weirdness intervening) might be a good idea, though, just so the engineers will have something to tell people." Volgavian says, "Something like, "It'll take roughly fifty years?"" Dement grins. Mika says, "And then when it takes less than that, YOU'LL ALL LOOK SUPER AWESOME." Mika likes it. Kastaprulyi says, "Sure. I guess we could have no clue to begin with." Dice says, "Captain, I need 12 hours to get the ship back online! You've got TWO." Kastaprulyi can't imagine Dement staking his honor on a promised completion date unless it were -really- far in the future. :) Mika says, "So..." You say, "So?" Mika says, "So, are we done here, seminar leader guy, or...?" You say, "Let's go Wikipedia on this!" TERRAFORMING IN POPULAR CULTURE Martin says, "They never really explain stuff in pop culture refernces I think." Dement just thought that was funny, really. Volgavian says, "In the La Terran movie, Les Enfants de Terre, the bacteria infested the minds of children on a terraformed planet and caused 10% of them to mutate into horrible killing machines." Volgavian coughs. Mika hahahahas Dice says, "Awesome." You say, "Righty folks, looks like we've gotten through a massive chunk of stuff. How do you all feel? Like superstars? Deservin' of a smoochin'?" Dice says, "Sleeeepy." Volgavian says, "I'm thinking if terraforming is in pop culture, it's in B movies. :P" Dice says, "That was really good, though, a lot actually got discussed." Mika likes it. You got a log, Dee? You say, "Of course I did!" Everyone has been given one experience point! Confetti points brought to you by: Brody! Everyone has been given one experience point! Confetti points brought to you by: Brody! Everyone has been given one experience point! Confetti points brought to you by: Brody! Everyone has been given one experience point! Confetti points brought to you by: Brody! You say, "I made notes, got a log, am going to collect it and make a wikipedia article about it, I'm a snazzy guy like that." Mika eees. You say, "Did anyone have any questions?" Volgavian says, "Not today." Dice says, "I think we're good. Well done Dee!" OBLIGATORY QUESTION ROUND! You say, "Well done Dee? I didn't do anything past a +calendar entry and a rather over-the-top introduction... and I was late!" Tiana says, "WHY WAS YOUR MUM SO DISSATISFYING LAST NIGHT, DEE?!" Tiana questions. You say, "CAUSE YOU USED THE WRONG HOLE." Tiana says, "Well god dammit! IT's hard to bloody tell with her!" Kastaprulyi says, "Can we leave that out of the logs that newbies will be reading?" Kastaprulyi says, "Then again, I guess they ought to learn the flavor of OS. :)" Dice says, "OS: Using the wrong hole since 2650." Mika hahahas. Er, though, yeah, any off-color or pointless chatter should be stripped out. Kastaprulyi hasn't any questions at the moment, but I'd really like to see what questions Lucius and Martin have about the Mars timeline and stuff, if they haven't already seen them. Tiana is Martian too! :P Kastaprulyi says, "Prove it. :)" Tiana says, "..." ...and suddenly the music changes, a triumphant jingle filling the dream tavern as though it was the end of a game show. "Thanks guys! Thanks so much for your input. This has been hella help!" Dement calls, standing up as the circle of chairs mutate and disappear, dumping people who had gotten comfortable back onto whatever seating their own imagination reflects them on. "I think I'll have those back." he grins, "And now, now I am off to write a Singing Sword post about all of YOU, congratulations!" he vanishes at that, as if he had never been here at all. Tiana says, "And what is that supposed to entail, Kas? Just because Ti's Martian, doesn't mean she took to her homeworld over well. :P" Volgavian flicks off the space Dement was in.